OK. I don't feel like translating the whole discussion back and forse, so I am creating this topic in international forum and inviting Jan here So the story is the following: there are currently two litters from Cinnamon males and Dove Tortoishell females. It so happens that those males are brothers and females are sisters, so the litters should be quite similar. On this page you can find pictures of one of the litters. http://hamster.ru/forum/posts/77134/ Zarena calls it "breeder's nightmare" because they are having trouble to figure out who is Honey, who is Cinnamon, and who is Cinnamon Tortoishell. Here are the pictures of the second litter. http://hamster.ru/forum/posts/77062/ With this one it is a bit easier, because they have Dove's in it, so they at least do not look all the same. There are two bright males there, Maria thinks they are Honey, because from her experience Cinnamon babies are of different shade. I wonder, whether we should suspect Honey Blacks in some of Doves in that litter? About undercoat color: it turns out that Cinnamons in Russia have a large variety of undercoat color. Some almost don't look like grey at all. And there is still a problem with distiguishing Cinnamon Tortoishell females from Cinnamon - because they all should have grey undercolor on the head.